tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9072513697886962462.post9079511079107272130..comments2023-09-01T06:44:41.621-04:00Comments on A Lutheran Beggar: Lutheran Quote of the Day: Yeago on Luther on Genesis, all in HütterJoel Woodwardhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04983087203341283128noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9072513697886962462.post-73712737053753280752018-11-22T16:35:55.940-05:002018-11-22T16:35:55.940-05:00I discovered your blog site site on the search eng...I discovered your blog site site on the search engines and check several of your early posts. Always maintain up the very good operate. I recently additional increase Rss to my MSN News Reader. Looking for toward reading much more on your part later on!…On the supplementshttp://onthegosupplments.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9072513697886962462.post-41883658633610284082012-08-28T18:21:13.159-04:002012-08-28T18:21:13.159-04:00Very eye opening!Very eye opening!Elliott Broidyhttp://www.elliottbroidy.incracing.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9072513697886962462.post-76415042382709424932012-07-12T05:03:56.183-04:002012-07-12T05:03:56.183-04:00I admire the valuable information you provide in y...I admire the valuable information you provide in your articles. I'll mark your blog and see my friends here often. I'm sure you will learn many new things here than anyone else!Online Pharmacyhttp://www.callpills.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9072513697886962462.post-45781060304803658042011-12-07T13:21:06.675-05:002011-12-07T13:21:06.675-05:00Wonderful quote!Wonderful quote!Viagrahttp://www.kwikmed.com/viagra.aspnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9072513697886962462.post-3976830348698846282008-12-07T08:52:00.000-05:002008-12-07T08:52:00.000-05:00I also forgot to mention- Yeago and his compatriot...I also forgot to mention- Yeago and his compatriots within the ELCA who call themselves "Evangelical Catholics" (formerly Hutter and Marshall- Hinlicky, Root, Jenson, Braaten) have more or less uncritically accepted Finnish Luther scholarship.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9072513697886962462.post-76892243846345396852008-12-07T07:32:00.000-05:002008-12-07T07:32:00.000-05:00I know Mattes and I was going to recommend his art...I know Mattes and I was going to recommend his article that you mentioned. Mattes I believe would have similar criticism as me.<BR/><BR/>You are definitely correct that Forde's position on the law is overly existentializing. He defines Law as "that which accuses or demands." He is also correct that that which demands, necessarily accuses. If my mother asks me to clean my room, then it is an accusation that I have not cleaned it. If it is already clean, then why would she ask? The regulatory aspect of the law in creation then, before the Fall, would also not be a law that accused either, because it was not really a demand in the sense that it was a obligation- but rather a kind of channel for the love of God. In other words, God did not say "keep this command, and we will maintain our relationship." There relationship was merely one of giving and receiving of divine goodness. Sin happened only when human beings stop being receivers and start trying to grasp the good through their actions.<BR/><BR/><BR/>The problem with Forde's position though is that Luther does not merely define the law as that which accuses (actually he calls this "the Office of the law" "Anything which threats or accuses" he says "has the office of the law"), but also as the "immutable will of God." Theodosius Harnack conceptualized the distinction that Luther is making here with his claim that Luther taught that there was an "essence" (Wesen) and office (Amt) to the Law. According to its essence, it was God's eternal and good will. According to its office, it was a tyrant over the sinner.<BR/><BR/>This does not necessarily contradict much of what Forde has said, it just suggests that the law has a reality apart from our experience of it as a tyrant. Furthermore, again, if I am in accordance with this eternal will of God it should not be a threat to me or even demand anything out of me.<BR/><BR/>How does one deal with the Genesis narrative then when there are real commandments given before the fall that also have a regulatory effect on our interaction with creation? <BR/><BR/>Luther states very clearly that at a later point that Adam and Eve would have been translated into heaven. If I see God "face to face" then why would there need to be an office of ministry and a Word of God to preach? If we shall "neither marry, nor be given in marriage" then why need there be a command to be fruitful? In other words, Forde's explanation works with regard to the eschatological nature of the law. At the eschton, since there is no creation to regulate, then there is no law as something that needs to be fulfilled (as either something accusing or regulating). If Paul is correct, then we already have a foretaste of this in that we have a "down payment of the Spirit" causing us to "delight in the law of God" in our "inner being." Therefore, the law ceases with the eschton in its first, second and third uses.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, law, cannot before the last judgment be reduced to an existential category with regard to its first and third uses. Whereas the "inner person" ceases to be under the law- the external person (as Paul also says) is still under the law because of sin and the need to regulate creation. Of course, the accusing nature of the law post-Fall is not separable from the regulatory function. Law is never "fun happy" law- neither is it (contra Calvin and Aquinas) a basis for divine human interaction. <BR/><BR/>I will look for your piece on the third use of the law and try to respond to that as well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9072513697886962462.post-34513202367824201282008-12-06T14:09:00.000-05:002008-12-06T14:09:00.000-05:00This quote found in Hutter is the only thing I hav...This quote found in Hutter is the only thing I have read of Yeago. I mostly agree with what he says, though the whole "diefied" thing sounds a little Finnish to me. I just started reading Mark Matte's essay "The Thomist Turn" which is directly addressed to Hutter and Yeago's postitions.<BR/><BR/>I agree that the law in Adam's pristine bliss was his way of expressing gratefulness towards God, and not to makee himself holy or to move towards God. I take Malysz' position of the law (love of God, love of neighbor) as being the shape of the pristine life in a community of "self-giving." (I'm not sure if this is what you meant by "interacting").<BR/><BR/>Your second paragraph sounds right out of Forde and his understanding of how to relate or understand the seemingly conflicting positions of Matt. 5:17-18 and Rom. 10:4. It seems he chalks it up to that which is before the eschaton (Matt.) and that which is after (Rom.). I don't see this playing out at all in Scripture. And I also don't believe (even from his own examples in Law Gospel Debate) Forde's arguments from Luther to support this. I find it an inability to separate an existential understanding of the law from a content based understanding (love of God, love of neighbor). I don't see Scripture actively promoting this understanding of the inseperability of what we call law from it's content. Once we boil down law to an existential category we lose the understanding that, with the law, God is telling us: "THIS is what I desire from you" (1st use) and "THIS, you do not do." (2nd use) The content of the law becomes the arbitrary means, bound to this age, through which God upholds civil soceity and prepares us for the gospel. The law might as well be, which Forde I believe characterized as being an example of the law, "rustling leaves." The law cannot have any eternal validity and thus it becomes a lex vacua.<BR/><BR/>I agree, true adherence to the "structure" can only be a result of being the church, having the gospel and holding to it through faith. But I don't see this as being only an eschatological possibility. Nor do I believe the content of the law is inseperably connected with its coercing and condemning offices. Paul does not delight in a precogniscent law, rather, Paul knows the law and he delights in it. Just as the Psalmist can delight in meditating on the law of God.<BR/><BR/>I have a post on the third use of the law. A very different position on it than you. I would love to hear your input.Joel Woodwardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04983087203341283128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9072513697886962462.post-10371872265552802352008-12-06T13:14:00.000-05:002008-12-06T13:14:00.000-05:00You realize that Yeago teaches his students at Lut...You realize that Yeago teaches his students at Lutheran Southern that Martin Luther and Thomas Aquinas have the same view of justification?<BR/><BR/>I've read the whole piece- what Yeago is saying over all is that Luther views the Law to be an ordering principle like Aquinas. But if as Luther says in the Antinomian Disputations that "when sin ceases, Law also ceases" then how could the law ever be an ordering principle? In other words, if one has faith and therefore has fullfilled the law, then what is there to be order towards(?), you're already there! This has nothing do with the Third use either, because the Third use is for our old nature as the FC clearly states. <BR/><BR/>Adam of course did have the law, but only as a means of expressing his gratefulness of having everything already fulfilled within him, not as a means of interacting with God or moving towards God or actualizing the Good. <BR/><BR/>Yeago then believes that this is applicable to the modern Church. There is no "semper lex acusat nos." When one has faith, then "fun happy" law starts. "Fun happy" law makes you the Church by doing it. For this reason it is imperative to be obedient to the Bishop, especially the Bishop of Rome. There is Spirit and Structure. The Spirit makes the Church Church by having it adhere to a common "Law" which will actualize it in a concrete historical form. So, for Yeago, it is Law which makes the Church the Church and not the Gospel.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9072513697886962462.post-46696360260461805722008-12-03T21:08:00.000-05:002008-12-03T21:08:00.000-05:00Lol! Its a pretty good essay. Unfortunately, Hutte...Lol! Its a pretty good essay. Unfortunately, Hutter is now of the Catholic faith. You can start to see his leanings in this essay, especially his critique on the Lutheran view of justification. He almost seems to have the view of Osiander. But concerning ethics (I hate that term by the way) it is quite good.Joel Woodwardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04983087203341283128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9072513697886962462.post-73977242351444568172008-12-03T20:06:00.000-05:002008-12-03T20:06:00.000-05:00Say, it's taken from the Promise of Lutheran Ethic...Say, it's taken from the Promise of Lutheran Ethics?? I have that book!Augustinian Successorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04701412663559781833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9072513697886962462.post-90000681855141593522008-12-03T20:05:00.000-05:002008-12-03T20:05:00.000-05:00Oh I see, it was actually taken from Hutter's book...Oh I see, it was actually taken from Hutter's book. Maybe I should get a sencond-hand copy?Augustinian Successorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04701412663559781833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9072513697886962462.post-5604710366562318822008-12-03T20:03:00.000-05:002008-12-03T20:03:00.000-05:00Was the Yeago excerpt taken from a journal? Great....Was the Yeago excerpt taken from a journal? Great. I mentioned about journals in my first comment on top of this post!Augustinian Successorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04701412663559781833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9072513697886962462.post-24250867486379138932008-12-03T20:01:00.000-05:002008-12-03T20:01:00.000-05:00Hey Joel, thanks for this post! It's food for thou...Hey Joel, thanks for this post! It's food for thought, since I shared with you not too long ago about reflecting on whether there was such a thing as "law" (in the general sense) before the Fall.Augustinian Successorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04701412663559781833noreply@blogger.com